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Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2004 20:00:42 -0000
Subject: [domaindrivendesign] Re: Reconstitution and Factories...
Reply-To: domaindrivendesign at symbol yahoogroups.com
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Thanks Eric, this is in line with what I was thinking.  Getting 
very .NET specific here, a much narrower interface like you describe 
seems to be (after perusing the docs further) IDataRecord which 
IDataReader extends.  This provides the raw row access, and lends 
itself nicely to both communicating intent by representing a single 
row of data, and also being side effect free since no cursor 
behavior is exposed.  The caller can manage the iteration and 
closing/disposing of the reader.  The factory needs only the 
IDataRecord instance to read the values from.  It also seems to be 
much easier to mock in thinking about it.

Finally, I really want to commend you on what I consider to be the 
finest software book I've read in a long time.  It really should be 
required reading for anyone doing development.  

Thanks again,

Kris

 
> As for side-effect-free functions. The principle would have to 
have been 
> applied in the design of the IDataReader, so we have no choice in 
the 
> matter. However, if the IDataReader is a one-use , throwaway 
object, 
> like an Iterator, whose primary purpose is to move that cursor 
along , 
> then the harm done by its side-effect is minimal. If you are going 
to 
> make a cursor/iterator type design, it is good to be aware of the 
> side-effect, and isolate it into an object that is very narrow and 
> shortlived (like an Iterator). 



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Date: Fri,  2 Jul 2004 13:30:43 +0100
Subject: Re: [domaindrivendesign] Reconstitution and Factories...
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Kris,

In my model of the world, we have repositories which depend on IDataReader, and they themselves retain that dependancy without passing it on.  The
factories look like normal factories, with Create(xxx, xxx, xxx) params on them.  IDataReader remains within the repository as an implementation
detail.

Is that what you mean?

Nick.
"devdiscuss" <krs_goss at symbol hotmail.com> wrote:

: As I understand it, the factory is the central place for building 
: and reconstituting an entity.  While repositories can lookup for 
: instance, it seems ideal to have a repository delegate off to its 
: corresponding factory implementation when its time to create the 
: domain entity object.  All generation is centralized.
: 
: Assuming (in the context of .NET/ADO.NET) we use a DataSet or 
: IDataReader to retrieve entity state from a db, is it acceptable to 
: pass IDataReader,DataSet to "Build" methods on a factory from say, a 
: repository?  A couple issues with this:
: 
: 1. This seems like it should be internal.  A domain layer should not 
: expose the lower lying implementation techniques to public 
: consumers.  
: 
: 2. Is passing IDataReader specifically valid?  It seems to violate 
: the principle of "side effect free functions" since it is moving a 
: cursor over the reader, and potentially closing the reader when 
: done.  To me, this feels wrong, however; there are notable 
: performance benefits to using a IDataReader over a DataSet when 
: appropriate.
: 
: Thanks, I look forward to any comments or past experiences from the 
: group in this area.
: 
: Regards,
: 
: Kris





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Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 02:25:12 -0000
Subject: [domaindrivendesign] Re: Reconstitution and Factories...
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Hi Nick, I agree that the repository depends on IDataReader since one 
of its roles is to retrieve results from the database   Although the 
repository retrieves an IDataReader, it seems natural to then 
delegate to the corresponding factory for reconstitution.  In the 
case of converting a single row result to a domain object, 
IDataRecord seems to better communicate intent vs. IDataReader.  It's 
side effect free from the repository perspective, since the factory 
only accepts IDataRecord, it provides a narrower inteface vs. 
IDataReader by not supporting iteration, closing, etc.  Its analagous 
to passing a DataRow vs. DataTable if you were using a DataSet 
instead.  In each case, you're passing the narrowest possible 
interface 
necessary to accomplish the operation.

-Kris

--- In domaindrivendesign at symbol yahoogroups.com, "Nick Robinson" 
<nicholasrobinson at symbol f...> wrote:
> Kris,
> 
> In my model of the world, we have repositories which depend on 
IDataReader, and they themselves retain that dependancy without 
passing it on.  The
> factories look like normal factories, with Create(xxx, xxx, xxx) 
params on them.  IDataReader remains within the repository as an 
implementation
> detail.
> 
> Is that what you mean?
> 
> Nick.



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Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 18:06:17 -0000
Subject: [domaindrivendesign] DOMAIN NAMES!
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Hello my name is Nick Niceman.I am a domain name owner.
Next domain names is for sale:
europeancell.com
europeanautomarket.com
eurovive.com
autotradings.com
euromaxx.info
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Kind Regards
Nick Niceman
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Subject: [domaindrivendesign] New poll for domaindrivendesign
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Enter your vote today!  A new poll has been created for the 
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Do you think this group should be 
moderated at this time in order to 
prevent spam? 

  o Yes, now. 
  o No, wait and see. 


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Subject: [domaindrivendesign] New poll for domaindrivendesign
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Enter your vote today!  A new poll has been created for the 
domaindrivendesign group:

Would you be willing to act as a part-
time moderator for the group? 

  o Yes 
  o Maybe 


To vote, please visit the following web page:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/domaindrivendesign/surveys?id=623121  

Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are 
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups 
web site listed above.

Thanks!

 





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From - Tue Jul 06 11:52:59 2004
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From: "Eric Evans" <eric at symbol domainlanguage.com>
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Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 18:55:15 -0000
Subject: [domaindrivendesign] Spam, moderating, and polls
Reply-To: domaindrivendesign at symbol yahoogroups.com
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There has been a noticable increase in spam to the group recently. In 
my personal opinion, it is still only a minor anoyance, and isn't 
high enough volume to interfere with the operation of the group. But 
others may feel differently. So I've started a poll to see what 
others think, and another as a mechanism for collecting volunteers to 
moderate. (Note, your id will be visible in the volunteering poll, 
but not in the voting poll.)

The only kind of "domains" we are interested in here are software 
application domains. The only kind of "debt reduction" we are 
interested in is design debt.

One useful fact to know: all the spam has been posted from accounts 
that have just signed up that day. In light of this, the "moderate 
new members" approach could eliminate the spam. But I feel it would 
need to be very quick, because it is important to be responsive to 
people who are seeking something and have just become aware of DDD. 
To be quick, would require multiple moderators. But the job would be 
easy, because we would only be screening postings of new members, and 
then would only be stopping those that are completely inappropriate.

Another possibility others here might know about: adding the graphic 
recognition test to signup. I've noticed, in a few groups, that it 
presents you with a distorted image of a word that you have to 
recognize. I suspect that at least some of the spam is from robots, 
so adding this would stop them. I can't find any option to turn this 
on, though.

As I said, I'm content to wait until the problem gets worse, but I'm 
also willing to moderate new members if many people here want that 
and a few here are willing to help. I suppose it is only a matter of 
time until we will have to do it.

Eric



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From - Tue Jul 06 12:20:13 2004
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Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 15:08:46 -0400
Subject: Re: [domaindrivendesign] New poll for domaindrivendesign
Reply-To: domaindrivendesign at symbol yahoogroups.com
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On Tuesday, July 6, 2004, at 2:39:01 PM, domaindrivendesign at symbol yahoogroups.com wrote:

> Do you think this group should be 
> moderated at this time in order to 
> prevent spam? 

>   o Yes, now. 
>   o No, wait and see.

The group can be set to moderate posts by new members only. That's what I
think should be done, and it's not an option listed.

Ron Jeffries
www.XProgramming.com
There is no award for "being XP". There is an award for doing the right
combination of practices: success.




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Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 15:06:53 -0400
Subject: Re: [domaindrivendesign] DOMAIN NAMES!
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On Tuesday, July 6, 2004, at 2:06:17 PM, Nick wrote:

> Hello my name is Nick Niceman.I am a domain name owner.

But you're not a nice man. I hope the moderators remove you from the list,
and that the gods remove you from the universe.

Ron Jeffries
www.XProgramming.com
A lot of preconceptions can be dismissed when you actually
try something out. -- Bruce Eckel




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From: Patrick Linskey <pcl at symbol solarmetric.com>
Subject: Re: [domaindrivendesign] Spam, moderating, and polls
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 15:11:53 -0400
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FWIW, SpamSieve (the Bayesian filter that I use on my Mac) has caught 
all of the spam to this list. So I certainly haven't been bothered by 
it at all.

On Jul 6, 2004, at 2:55 PM, Eric Evans wrote:

> Another possibility others here might know about: adding the graphic
> recognition test to signup.

Personally, I have philosophical problems with the 
reverse-Turing-tests. Now, if that were the only way to resolve spam, 
maybe the pain would be worth the end result. But, given the 
effectiveness of a good Bayesian filter, I'm perfectly happy not having 
to prove my humanity each time I want to sign up for a mailing list.

-Patrick

-- 
Patrick Linskey
SolarMetric Inc.

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Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 19:30:27 -0000
Subject: [domaindrivendesign] Re: New poll for domaindrivendesign
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I've rephrased the poll. "Yes, new members."
"No, wait and see."

--- In domaindrivendesign at symbol yahoogroups.com, Ron Jeffries 
<jeffries at symbol d...> wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 6, 2004, at 2:39:01 PM, 
domaindrivendesign at symbol yahoogroups.com wrote:
> 
> > Do you think this group should be 
> > moderated at this time in order to 
> > prevent spam? 
> 
> >   o Yes, now. 
> >   o No, wait and see.
> 
> The group can be set to moderate posts by new members only. That's 
what I
> think should be done, and it's not an option listed.
> 
> Ron Jeffries
> www.XProgramming.com
> There is no award for "being XP". There is an award for doing the 
right
> combination of practices: success.



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Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 20:42:14 +0200
Subject: Re: [domaindrivendesign] Re: New poll for domaindrivendesign
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Hi Eric

Have new members default to "moderated".  The group still appears as  
"unmoderated".  Occasionally un-moderate a user who has posted sensibly.   
That is what I do with the JavaDataObjects group - spam is nil and  
response to messages is rapid (because those who are most likely to  
respond are already un-moderated).

Thanks, Robin.

On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 19:30:27 -0000, Eric Evans <eric at symbol domainlanguage.com>  
wrote:

> I've rephrased the poll. "Yes, new members."
> "No, wait and see."
>
> --- In domaindrivendesign at symbol yahoogroups.com, Ron Jeffries
> <jeffries at symbol d...> wrote:
>> On Tuesday, July 6, 2004, at 2:39:01 PM,
> domaindrivendesign at symbol yahoogroups.com wrote:
>>
>> > Do you think this group should be
>> > moderated at this time in order to
>> > prevent spam?
>>
>> >   o Yes, now.
>> >   o No, wait and see.
>>
>> The group can be set to moderate posts by new members only. That's
> what I
>> think should be done, and it's not an option listed.
>>
>> Ron Jeffries
>> www.XProgramming.com
>> There is no award for "being XP". There is an award for doing the
> right
>> combination of practices: success.
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>



-- 
Robin M. Roos
Ogilvie Partners Ltd
www.OgilviePartners.com


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From - Wed Jul 07 11:34:33 2004
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Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 14:43:41 -0700
Subject: Re: [domaindrivendesign] Re: New poll for domaindrivendesign
Reply-To: domaindrivendesign at symbol yahoogroups.com
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My policy on groups like BayXP is to unmoderate someone the first time
they say something sensible.

There's a little hyperlink in the corner of the message approval page
that takes you  to the authors posting settings.  Click that link,
then click the "Use group settings" radio button, then return to the
moderation page and approve the message.

-- 
John Brewer

Extreme Programming FAQ: http://www.jera.com/techinfo/xpfaq.html


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Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 15:25:10 -0400
Subject: Re: [domaindrivendesign] Spam, moderating, and polls
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From: "Eric Evans" <eric.at.domainlanguage.com at symbol yahoogroups.at.jhrothjr.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2004 2:55 PM
Subject: [domaindrivendesign] Spam, moderating, and polls


> There has been a noticable increase in spam to the group recently. In 
> my personal opinion, it is still only a minor anoyance, and isn't 
> high enough volume to interfere with the operation of the group. 

> One useful fact to know: all the spam has been posted from accounts 
> that have just signed up that day. In light of this, the "moderate 
> new members" approach could eliminate the spam. But I feel it would 
> need to be very quick, because it is important to be responsive to 
> people who are seeking something and have just become aware of DDD. 

I haven't noticed a lot of difficulty in the extremeprogrammng group.
We have six (seven?) moderators, although I'm doing the majority of the
work, and Ron Jeffries seems to be doing the rest.

In that group (which has an order of magnitude more traffic than this)
there are days without a first post by a new member.

> To be quick, would require multiple moderators. But the job would be 
> easy, because we would only be screening postings of new members, and 
> then would only be stopping those that are completely inappropriate.

It's a little more complex than that. You have to take the member off
of moderation, and then accept the first post. That requires signing on
to the Yahoo Groups, which in turn is a bit distasteful because of all
the advertising. Just responding to the moderation message doesn't take 
them off of moderation.

> Another possibility others here might know about: adding the graphic 
> recognition test to signup. I've noticed, in a few groups, that it 
> presents you with a distorted image of a word that you have to 
> recognize. I suspect that at least some of the spam is from robots, 
> so adding this would stop them. I can't find any option to turn this 
> on, though.
> 
> As I said, I'm content to wait until the problem gets worse, but I'm 
> also willing to moderate new members if many people here want that 
> and a few here are willing to help. I suppose it is only a matter of 
> time until we will have to do it.

It's not particularly a problem for me, but I'm quite willing to
do it.

John Roth
Moderator, ExtremeProgramming, XPAtlanta.
> 
> Eric



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From - Wed Jul 07 11:34:42 2004
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Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 22:06:11 -0000
Subject: [domaindrivendesign] A modeling question
Reply-To: domaindrivendesign at symbol yahoogroups.com
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How do you model many to many relationships between two objects when 
both of the objects are entities (and not value objects)? 

We have one case where "Account" has a collection 
of "Agents"  "Agent"  has a collection of "Account" and this results 
in a tree like structure.

Thx




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Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 18:05:26 -0400
Subject: Re: [domaindrivendesign] Spam, moderating, and polls
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On Tuesday, July 6, 2004, at 3:25:10 PM, yahoogroups at symbol jhrothjr.com wrote:

> I haven't noticed a lot of difficulty in the extremeprogrammng group.
> We have six (seven?) moderators, although I'm doing the majority of the
> work, and Ron Jeffries seems to be doing the rest.

> In that group (which has an order of magnitude more traffic than this)
> there are days without a first post by a new member.

Yes. And if yahoo would put a reply location in their email that would pass
the message and unmoderate the person, it'd be even better than it is now.
I'm never logged in to yahoo, even when I am here all day, so getting the
person unmoderated is the slightly tedious bit. Just a couple of clicks,
really ...

Ron Jeffries
www.XProgramming.com
A man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest.  -- Paul Simon




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Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 10:13:47 -0000
Subject: [domaindrivendesign] MESSAGE FROM NICK NICEMAN!
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HEY MAN!WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT?????IT WAS MY OFFER - NOT SPAM!
YOU STUPID CHRISTIAN!


--- In domaindrivendesign at symbol yahoogroups.com, Ron Jeffries 
<jeffries at symbol d...> wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 6, 2004, at 2:06:17 PM, Nick wrote:
> 
> > Hello my name is Nick Niceman.I am a domain name owner.
> 
> But you're not a nice man. I hope the moderators remove you from 
the list,
> and that the gods remove you from the universe.
> 
> Ron Jeffries
> www.XProgramming.com
> A lot of preconceptions can be dismissed when you actually
> try something out. -- Bruce Eckel



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Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 12:33:59 +0200
Subject: RE: [domaindrivendesign] MESSAGE FROM NICK NICEMAN!
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Your "offer" is SPAM and have no place in a mailinglist about domain-driven
design! And if you don't understand that you're the stupid one.

 

] -----Original Message-----
] From: Nick [mailto:k7sman at symbol lycos.de] 
] Sent: den 7 juli 2004 12:14
] To: domaindrivendesign at symbol yahoogroups.com
] Subject: [domaindrivendesign] MESSAGE FROM NICK NICEMAN!
] 
] HEY MAN!WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT?????IT WAS MY OFFER - NOT SPAM!
] YOU STUPID CHRISTIAN!
] 
] 
] --- In domaindrivendesign at symbol yahoogroups.com, Ron Jeffries 
] <jeffries at symbol d...> wrote:
] > On Tuesday, July 6, 2004, at 2:06:17 PM, Nick wrote:
] > 
] > > Hello my name is Nick Niceman.I am a domain name owner.
] > 
] > But you're not a nice man. I hope the moderators remove you from 
] the list,
] > and that the gods remove you from the universe.
] > 
] > Ron Jeffries
] > www.XProgramming.com
] > A lot of preconceptions can be dismissed when you actually
] > try something out. -- Bruce Eckel
] 
] 
] 
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Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 20:52:03 -0000
Subject: [domaindrivendesign] Aggregate roots and related entities
Reply-To: domaindrivendesign at symbol yahoogroups.com
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I am hoping to get some feedback from the group regarding exposing 
entities from an aggregate root entity.  Initially I had started off 
with standard Entity/Repository/Factory implemenations for Company 
as well as User.  Simply enough, a user belongs to a company in this 
scenario.

As I started using/testing this approach, it became easier to 
communicate by having to retrieve a User via a Company directly, and 
place this repository-esque behavior into Company itself.  Eg. 
Company.GetUser( userName ), etc.

So far, I made the change easy enough by having Company entity 
instantiate the UserRepository (now scoped internal to the domain)
within the factory method, and delegate the call to find down to 
it.  EG:

--->Client.GetUser( "user" ) ---> UserRepository.FindByUserName
( "user" ) 

I guess I'm wondering if having internal repositories/factories for 
certain entities in the domain which service aggregate roots is a 
valid approach, or maybe a bad smell?  

The resulting design seems to add some useful behavior onto the 
Company entity, and models the problem space more closely I think.  
Any comments are appreciated.

Thanks,

Kris



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Thread-topic: [domaindrivendesign] Aggregate roots and related entities
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Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 15:01:45 -0600
Subject: RE: [domaindrivendesign] Aggregate roots and related entities
Reply-To: domaindrivendesign at symbol yahoogroups.com
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Hi Kris,

My $0.02 is that that's a totally desirable thing to do since a User "belongs to" a Company.  That leads to client code (needing access to Users) navigating the domain model (by getting Users from their owning Company) instead of essentially bypassing the domain model to essentially interact with the persistence layer (through UserRepository).  It gives you a chance to cache a Company's User collection in an instance variable of the Company, if that makes sense, and it gives you a place to encapsulate domain logic like "include in the return value the Users of the other Company we just merged with", etc.  

What you're discovering is domain-driven design - I would encourage more of it. :)

Best Regards,
Randy

> -----Original Message-----
> From: devdiscuss [mailto:krs_goss at symbol hotmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 2:52 PM
> To: domaindrivendesign at symbol yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [domaindrivendesign] Aggregate roots and related entities
> 
> 
> I am hoping to get some feedback from the group regarding exposing 
> entities from an aggregate root entity.  Initially I had started off 
> with standard Entity/Repository/Factory implemenations for Company 
> as well as User.  Simply enough, a user belongs to a company in this 
> scenario.
> 
> As I started using/testing this approach, it became easier to 
> communicate by having to retrieve a User via a Company directly, and 
> place this repository-esque behavior into Company itself.  Eg. 
> Company.GetUser( userName ), etc.
> 
> So far, I made the change easy enough by having Company entity 
> instantiate the UserRepository (now scoped internal to the domain)
> within the factory method, and delegate the call to find down to 
> it.  EG:
> 
> --->Client.GetUser( "user" ) ---> UserRepository.FindByUserName
> ( "user" ) 
> 
> I guess I'm wondering if having internal repositories/factories for 
> certain entities in the domain which service aggregate roots is a 
> valid approach, or maybe a bad smell?  
> 
> The resulting design seems to add some useful behavior onto the 
> Company entity, and models the problem space more closely I think.  
> Any comments are appreciated.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Kris
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
> --------------------~--> 
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> http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/NhFolB/TM
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>  
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> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 


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From - Fri Jul 09 14:14:55 2004
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Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 08:58:06 +0200
Subject: RE: [domaindrivendesign] Aggregate roots and related entities
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I used to put this kind of behavior on "Parent" objects, but since I've
moved to a different approach. It is best to keep consistently applying
the same approach on all kinds of entities, otherwise you'll start
finding that entities that are connected to other entities make their
parents overly complex.
 
In your example, I would suggest having:
 
UserManager.Get(string userName)
And:
UserManager.GetCompanyIdForUser(int userId)
 
This way, the UserManager is not tied to the CompanyManager.
 
I recently posted an entry on my website where I explain my approach -
the Manager Model (or M2 ) - a little more. I suggest you take a look.
 
Thanks,
 
Udi Dahan - The Software Simplist
.Net Development Expert & SOA Specialist
 
email:   UdiDahan at symbol TheSoftwareSimplist.com
mobile:  +972-(0)52-888-426
web:     http://www.TheSoftwareSimplist.com
 
-----Original Message-----
From: devdiscuss [mailto:krs_goss at symbol hotmail.com] 
Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 10:52 PM
To: domaindrivendesign at symbol yahoogroups.com
Subject: [domaindrivendesign] Aggregate roots and related entities
 
*         I am hoping to get some feedback from the group regarding
exposing 
entities from an aggregate root entity.  Initially I had started off 
with standard Entity/Repository/Factory implemenations for Company 
as well as User.  Simply enough, a user belongs to a company in this 
scenario.

As I started using/testing this approach, it became easier to 
communicate by having to retrieve a User via a Company directly, and 
place this repository-esque behavior into Company itself.  Eg. 
Company.GetUser( userName ), etc.

So far, I made the change easy enough by having Company entity 
instantiate the UserRepository (now scoped internal to the domain)
within the factory method, and delegate the call to find down to 
it.  EG:

--->Client.GetUser( "user" ) ---> UserRepository.FindByUserName
( "user" ) 

I guess I'm wondering if having internal repositories/factories for 
certain entities in the domain which service aggregate roots is a 
valid approach, or maybe a bad smell?  

The resulting design seems to add some useful behavior onto the 
Company entity, and models the problem space more closely I think.  
Any comments are appreciated.

Thanks,

Kris

. 

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<div class=Section1>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I used to put this kind of behavior on &#8220;Parent&#8221;
objects, but since I&#8217;ve moved to a different approach. It is best to keep
consistently applying the same approach on all kinds of <span class=GramE>entities,</span>
otherwise you&#8217;ll start finding that entities that are connected to other
entities make their parents overly complex.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>In your example, I would suggest having:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><span class=SpellE><span class=GramE><font size=2
color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>UserManager.Get</span></font></span></span><span class=GramE><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>(</span></font></span><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>string <span
class=SpellE>userName</span>)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>And:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><span class=SpellE><span class=GramE><font size=2
color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>UserManager.GetCompanyIdForUser</span></font></span></span><span
class=GramE><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:navy'>(</span></font></span><span class=SpellE><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>int</span></font></span><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> <span class=SpellE>userId</span>)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>This way, the <span class=SpellE>UserManager</span>
is not tied to the <span class=SpellE>CompanyManager</span>.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I recently posted an entry on my website
where I explain my approach &#8211; the Manager Model (or <span class=GramE>M<sup>2</sup>
)</span> &#8211; a little more. I suggest you take a look.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=MsoAutoSig><font size=2 color=navy face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:navy;mso-no-proof:yes'>Udi
Dahan - The Software Simplist<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoAutoSig><font size=2 color=navy face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:navy;mso-no-proof:yes'>.Net
Development Expert &amp; SOA Specialist<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoAutoSig><font size=3 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:navy;mso-no-proof:yes'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoAutoSig><font size=1 color=navy face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:navy;mso-no-proof:yes'>email:<span
style='mso-spacerun:yes'>&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>UdiDahan at symbol TheSoftwareSimplist.com<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoAutoSig><font size=1 color=navy face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:navy;mso-no-proof:yes'>mobile:<span
style='mso-spacerun:yes'>&nbsp; </span>+972-(0)52-888-426<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

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style='mso-spacerun:yes'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span>http://www.TheSoftwareSimplist.com<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> devdiscuss
[mailto:krs_goss at symbol hotmail.com] <br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> </span></font><st1:date
Month="7" Day="8" Year="2004"><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:
 10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>Thursday, July 08, 2004</span></font></st1:date><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> </span></font><st1:time
Hour="22" Minute="52"><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
 font-family:Tahoma'>10:52 PM</span></font></st1:time><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b>
domaindrivendesign at symbol yahoogroups.com<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> [domaindrivendesign]
Aggregate roots and related entities</span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1;tab-stops:list 1.0in'><![if !supportLists]><font
size=2 face=Symbol><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol;mso-fareast-font-family:
Symbol;mso-bidi-font-family:Symbol'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>&middot;<font
size=1 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></font></span></span></font><![endif]><span dir=LTR><tt><font size=2
face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>I am hoping to get some
feedback from the group regarding exposing </span></font></tt></span><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">entities from an aggregate root entity.&nbsp;
Initially I had started off </font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">with standard Entity/Repository/Factory
implemenations for Company </font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">as well as User.&nbsp; Simply enough, a user
belongs to a company in this </font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">scenario.</font></tt><br>
<br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">As I started using/testing this approach, it
became easier to </font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">communicate by having to retrieve a User via a
Company directly, and </font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">place this repository-esque behavior into Company
itself.&nbsp; Eg. </font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">Company.GetUser( userName ), etc.</font></tt><br>
<br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">So far, I made the change easy enough by having
Company entity </font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">instantiate the UserRepository (now scoped
internal to the domain)</font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">within the factory method, and delegate the call
to find down to </font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">it.&nbsp; EG:</font></tt><br>
<br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">---&gt;Client.GetUser( &quot;user&quot; ) ---&gt;
UserRepository.FindByUserName</font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">( &quot;user&quot; ) </font></tt><br>
<br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">I guess I'm wondering if having internal
repositories/factories for </font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">certain entities in the domain which service
aggregate roots is a </font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">valid approach, or maybe a bad smell?&nbsp; </font></tt><br>
<br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">The resulting design seems to add some useful
behavior onto the </font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">Company entity, and models the problem space more
closely I think.&nbsp; </font></tt><br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">Any comments are appreciated.</font></tt><br>
<br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">Thanks,</font></tt><br>
<br>
<tt><font face="Courier New">Kris</font></tt><br>
<br>
. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

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From - Fri Jul 09 14:14:56 2004
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Thread-topic: [domaindrivendesign] Aggregate roots and related entities
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Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 02:45:01 -0600
Subject: RE: [domaindrivendesign] Aggregate roots and related entities
Reply-To: domaindrivendesign at symbol yahoogroups.com
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Hmm, this sounds kind of antithetical to DDD.  Assuming UserManager is a Re=
pository (in which case, why not name it UserRepository - see http://c2.com=
/cgi/wiki?DontNameClassesObjectManagerHandlerOrData), then consistently app=
lying the same approach would yield a Repository for every entity.  Client =
code needing access to a domain object would always interact directly with =
a Repository instead of aggregate roots, and would deal with only one domai=
n object at a time, never an aggregate as a whole, or the domain model as a=
 whole.  Chances are the "domain objects" in such a approach are reduced to=
 behaviorless data holders.  I don't think these are the patterns Eric advo=
cates in his book.
=20
Randy
-----Original Message-----
From: Udi Dahan [mailto:udidahan at symbol thesoftwaresimplist.com]
Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 12:58 AM
To: domaindrivendesign at symbol yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [domaindrivendesign] Aggregate roots and related entities


I used to put this kind of behavior on "Parent" objects, but since I've mov=
ed to a different approach. It is best to keep consistently applying the sa=
me approach on all kinds of entities, otherwise you'll start finding that e=
ntities that are connected to other entities make their parents overly comp=
lex.
=20
In your example, I would suggest having:
=20
UserManager.Get(string userName)
And:
UserManager.GetCompanyIdForUser(int userId)
=20
This way, the UserManager is not tied to the CompanyManager.
=20
I recently posted an entry on my website where I explain my approach - the =
Manager Model (or M2 ) - a little more. I suggest you take a look.
=20
Thanks,
=20
Udi Dahan - The Software Simplist
.Net Development Expert & SOA Specialist
=20
email:   UdiDahan at symbol TheSoftwareSimplist.com
mobile:  +972-(0)52-888-426
web:     http://www.TheSoftwareSimplist.com
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: devdiscuss [mailto:krs_goss at symbol hotmail.com]=20
Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 10:52 PM
To: domaindrivendesign at symbol yahoogroups.com
Subject: [domaindrivendesign] Aggregate roots and related entities
=20
*         I am hoping to get some feedback from the group regarding exposin=
g=20
entities from an aggregate root entity.  Initially I had started off=20
with standard Entity/Repository/Factory implemenations for Company=20
as well as User.  Simply enough, a user belongs to a company in this=20
scenario.

As I started using/testing this approach, it became easier to=20
communicate by having to retrieve a User via a Company directly, and=20
place this repository-esque behavior into Company itself.  Eg.=20
Company.GetUser( userName ), etc.

So far, I made the change easy enough by having Company entity=20
instantiate the UserRepository (now scoped internal to the domain)
within the factory method, and delegate the call to find down to=20
it.  EG:

--->Client.GetUser( "user" ) ---> UserRepository.FindByUserName
( "user" )=20

I guess I'm wondering if having internal repositories/factories for=20
certain entities in the domain which service aggregate roots is a=20
valid approach, or maybe a bad smell?=20=20

The resulting design seems to add some useful behavior onto the=20
Company entity, and models the problem space more closely I think.=20=20
Any comments are appreciated.

Thanks,

Kris

.=20


Yahoo! Groups Sponsor=09

ADVERTISEMENT
 <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=3D129i5iqgc/M=3D295196.4901138.6071305.300117=
6/D=3Dgroups/S=3D1705007181:HM/EXP=3D1089438898/A=3D2128215/R=3D0/SIG=3D10s=
e96mf6/*http://companion.yahoo.com> click here=09
  <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=3D295196.4901138.6071305.3001176/D=3Dgr=
oups/S=3D:HM/A=3D2128215/rand=3D691765646>=20=09


  _____=20=20

Yahoo! Groups Links

*	To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/domaindrivendesign/
=20=20

*	To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
domaindrivendesign-unsubscribe at symbol yahoogroups.com <mailto:domaindrivendesign-u=
nsubscribe at symbol yahoogroups.com?subject=3DUnsubscribe>=20
=20=20

*	Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service <http=
://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .=20


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<DIV><SPAN class=3D716123908-09072004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff si=
ze=3D2>Hmm,=20
this sounds kind of antithetical to DDD.&nbsp; Assuming UserManager is a=20
Repository (in which case, why not name it UserRepository - see <A=20
href=3D"http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?DontNameClassesObjectManagerHandlerOrData">h=
ttp://c2.com/cgi/wiki?DontNameClassesObjectManagerHandlerOrData</A>),=20
then consistently applying the same approach would yield a Repository for e=
very=20
entity.&nbsp; Client code needing access to a domain object would always=20
interact directly with a Repository instead of aggregate roots, and would d=
eal=20
with only one domain object at a time, never an aggregate as a whole, or th=
e=20
domain model as a whole.&nbsp; Chances are the "domain objects" in such a=20
approach are reduced to behaviorless data holders.&nbsp; I don't think thes=
e are=20
the patterns Eric advocates in his book.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D716123908-09072004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D716123908-09072004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>Randy</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px soli=
d; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DTah=
oma=20
  size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Udi Dahan=20
  [mailto:udidahan at symbol thesoftwaresimplist.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, July 09=
,=20
  2004 12:58 AM<BR><B>To:</B>=20
  domaindrivendesign at symbol yahoogroups.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: [domaindrivende=
sign]=20
  Aggregate roots and related entities<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV class=3DSection1>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I used to put =
this=20
  kind of behavior on &#8220;Parent&#8221; objects, but since I&#8217;ve mo=
ved to a different=20
  approach. It is best to keep consistently applying the same approach on a=
ll=20
  kinds of <SPAN class=3DGramE>entities,</SPAN> otherwise you&#8217;ll star=
t finding=20
  that entities that are connected to other entities make their parents ove=
rly=20
  complex.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o=
:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">In your exampl=
e, I=20
  would suggest having:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o=
:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN class=3DSpellE><SPAN class=3DGramE><FONT face=
=3DArial=20
  color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">UserManager.Ge=
t</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN=20
  class=3DGramE><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">(</SPAN></FONT=
></SPAN><FONT=20
  face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">string <SPAN=20
  class=3DSpellE>userName</SPAN>)<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">And:<o:p></o:p=
></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN class=3DSpellE><SPAN class=3DGramE><FONT face=
=3DArial=20
  color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">UserManager.Ge=
tCompanyIdForUser</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN=20
  class=3DGramE><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">(</SPAN></FONT=
></SPAN><SPAN=20
  class=3DSpellE><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">int</SPAN></FO=
NT></SPAN><FONT=20
  face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <SPAN=20
  class=3DSpellE>userId</SPAN>)<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o=
:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">This way, the =
<SPAN=20
  class=3DSpellE>UserManager</SPAN> is not tied to the <SPAN=20
  class=3DSpellE>CompanyManager</SPAN>.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o=
:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I recently pos=
ted an=20
  entry on my website where I explain my approach &#8211; the Manager Model=
 (or <SPAN=20
  class=3DGramE>M<SUP>2</SUP> )</SPAN> &#8211; a little more. I suggest you=
 take a=20
  look.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o=
:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Thanks,<o:p></=
o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o=
:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <DIV>
  <P class=3DMsoAutoSig><FONT face=3DVerdana color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-no-proof=
: yes">Udi=20
  Dahan - The Software Simplist<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoAutoSig><FONT face=3DVerdana color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-no-proof=
: yes">.Net=20
  Development Expert &amp; SOA Specialist<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoAutoSig><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" color=3Dnavy size=3D=
3><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: navy; mso-no-proof: yes"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:=
p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoAutoSig><FONT face=3D"Courier New" color=3Dnavy size=3D1><S=
PAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-no-=
proof: yes">email:<SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  </SPAN>UdiDahan at symbol TheSoftwareSimplist.com<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoAutoSig><FONT face=3D"Courier New" color=3Dnavy size=3D1><S=
PAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-no-=
proof: yes">mobile:<SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;=20
  </SPAN>+972-(0)52-888-426<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoAutoSig><FONT face=3D"Courier New" color=3Dnavy size=3D1><S=
PAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 8pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-no-=
proof: yes">web:<SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  </SPAN>http://www.TheSoftwareSimplist.com<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></D=
IV>
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  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o=
:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=3DTahoma siz=
e=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">-----Original=20
  Message-----<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> dev=
discuss=20
  [mailto:krs_goss at symbol hotmail.com] <BR><B><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> </SPAN></FONT><st1:date Year=
=3D"2004"=20
  Day=3D"8" Month=3D"7"><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">Thursday, July 08,=20
  2004</SPAN></FONT></st1:date><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"> </SPAN></FONT><st1:time=20
  Minute=3D"52" Hour=3D"22"><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">10:52=20
  PM</SPAN></FONT></st1:time><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><BR><B><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B>=20
  domaindrivendesign at symbol yahoogroups.com<BR><B><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> [domaindrivendesign] Aggr=
egate=20
  roots and related entities</SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=3D"Times New=
 Roman"=20
  size=3D3><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></FONT><=
/P>
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; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list 1.=
0in"><![if !supportLists]><FONT=20
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ymbol; mso-bidi-font-family: Symbol"><SPAN=20
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AN=20
  style=3D"FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
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